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Do you use hide glue regularly?

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Tue, 01/15/2008 - 8:15pm — Leif
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Leif - Wed, 01/30/2008 - 9:01pm.

 

Wow, this is interesting...  Never? 
 

David B. - Sat, 02/16/2008 - 6:26am.

 

My guess is that furniture repair/restoration is going to suck in the future.  No one using reversible glues that sticks to itself.  I have never used hide glue, but honestly I haven't been building heirloom furniture.  Now that I have more time and I'm looking to build some nicer pieces I may have to look into it.  Might even start using some cut nails!
 
David B.

Leif - Sat, 02/16/2008 - 7:22am.

I'm surprised that almost 2/3 of the responders say "Never"...  I expected that to be about half that number with the remainder of the majority in the "Rarely" catalog. 

I suggest you look into it - it's a great glue, but there is a learning curve involved with using it - which may be what scares some off.

I agree about the point on furniture restoration...  Over the past year or two I've seen several "helpful" types recommending they repair things like antique chairs with epoxy - and that it's reversible with "gentle heating"...  My first impression is that these misguided fellows have never had to repair their own work.  Dad took to using epoxy on many of his restorations of old chairs - every single one that I have had to fix since has been a real bear to repair.  "Gentle heating" my A$$!  There wasn't anything gentle about it.  The epoxy embeds itself right into the fibers of the wood too, making using anything else in the future impossible.  Yes, the stuff has it's uses, especially in boat building - but for restorations and most fine furniture building, it has no place in my shop.   But don't get me wrong - it does have it's place if the situation calls for it.

Regular glues also have their place - I use Titebond original and white glue in my shop all the time, especially for utilitarian pieces.  I have pieces made 30 years ago that are holding together very well.

 Goodness, I just had a rant! Anyway - thanks for commenting, David!

Leif

David B. - Sat, 02/23/2008 - 8:32am.

I have just been reading a old book called "Our Workshop - A Practical Guide To The Amateur In The Art Of Carpentry and Joinery."  That I found on WKFineTools.com.  In the book it talks about hide glues and mentions some things you can add to hide glue to give it different properties (page 83).  The book says...

  The strength of common glue may be somewhat increased by adding a  small portion of finely powdered chalk, which must be thoroughly incorporated with it.  Another preparation which will resist moisture is made by melting one pound of the best glue in two quarts of skimmed milk.

It then goes on and describes how to make a "very strong glue" which is Isinglass.  I had never heard of isinglass, so I did a little research and found that this is what I think we call fish glue today.

Another thing that this book got me to thinking about was the quality of hide glues.  Since hide glues isn't used as much as it used to be has the quality of the glue diminished?  Honestly I have never been around hide glue, but I have always heard that it had a smell.  This book says that the finest quality hide glue should be devoid of taste and smell.  The book goes on to mention that you can test you glue for quality by putting raw hide glue in a container and adding cold water and covering it.  If after 3 or 4 days the glue is swelled but not melted then it is of the best quality.

There is nothing like these old woodworking books for straight forward practical knowledge.  These might be things worth testing out.  I have never heard of doing things like this with hide glue.  Then again hide glue was in its prime a few days before I was born. Cool

 

David B. @ kickin' it old school

Leif - Sat, 02/23/2008 - 5:10pm.

Hey, thanks, David!

That sounds like a neat book with some great tips.   I think your right, the closest thing we would have to Isinglass would be fish glue...

Good glue, even today, won't smell - at least not much.  If it does, it may have gone bad - but granules can be stored for years, so long as they are kept dry and cool.  It is an animal product (basically a form of Jello) so some pests, bugs, bacteria, and mold will find it tasty and ruin it...

 While granules can (and often are) stored for years - once mixed, hide glue has a shelf life.  You can't leave it out any longer than you can leave out food and still expect it to be edible.  You can refrigerate it - I put mine in a squeeze bottle and store it in the fridge while I'm using it over a short period...  If it's not going to get used right away, I freeze it.  The glue can withstand 2-3 freezings quite well.

 There is a few things you can do to extend the open time of hot hide glue...  Some seem rather simple, but you don't always think of them.  First, work in a warm room...  Next, use a halogen light and/or a heat gun to heat the piece you are gluing prior to putting the glue on.  You can add a pinch of salt to the mix to extend the open time too... If you have a source for urea (it's a common element in fertilizers), it can also be added to extend open time.  Urea is what is added to the bottled glue that titebond sells...  But remember, additives also weaken the strength of the glue, so this may be a factor in using it.

Some claim the glue is better if you make it the previous day and let it age overnight (in the fridge)... This may be true to some extent, I'm not exactly sure as I've never tested it.

Something else to be aware of is what strength of glue you are using...  Hide glue is classified by what's known as "gram strength.".  You don't have to know anything much more than this - the higher the number, the higher strenghth the glue - and the less the open time you have to use it.  Hide glues are generally sold in three strengths - 192, 256, and 310.   192 gram strength is good for most woodworking, whereas 256 is used where there is a structural need for stronger glue.  The 310 isn't really as important for it's strength as it is for it's short open time...  It's good for rub joints and the like, when you don't want to be sitting there holding or clamping a piece to be glued.

 If you are looking for more information on hide glue, here's a few good links you can look at:

http://www.player-care.com/hideglue.html

http://www.player-care.com/hide_q-a.html

 Be warned, it plays some hokey player piano thing that is kind of annoying, but the info is still good.  There's more great info on Frank Ford's site, Frets.com:

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Data/Materials/hideglue.html

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPAGES/Luthier/Technique/Glue/UseHideGlue/usehideglue1.html

 Anyway, thanks for the reference to the book - I'll look it up and do  a little reading, it sounds excellent!  I love those old books, there's a wealth of knowledge in them - though sometimes you need a translator to read them (e.g. in Paul Hasluck's book Manual of Traditional Wood Carving, "deal" means something like "pine" - or at least that's the closest I could come up with).

 Leif

 

PS - the book you mention is also available on Google Books at http://books.google.com/books?id=kAsKAAAAIAAJ



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